Geneva Williams: I noticed in the introduction of your book, The Women’s Revolution: How We Changed Your Life, that your papers are housed at the Schlesinger Library at Harvard. The Schlesinger archives are very important to our WAPUSH project. Can you share how your papers ended up there?

Fox: All the NOW [National Organization for Women] records are at Schlesinger Library. I think that includes Betty Friedan and the NOW chapters of the National NOW, all of our archives are with Schlesinger Library. We sent them to Schlesinger.

Williams: I thought it was really interesting how you argue the “…new era for women and men began on October 29, 1966 when we founded the National Organization for Women” (pg. 8). I also thought it was interesting how much credit you give in the book to the work of Betty Friedan in the women’s movement. If you were teaching high school students, would you tell them the second wave of feminism started in 1963 with the publication of Friedan’s book, The Feminine Mystique or in 1966 with the founding of NOW?

Fox: There were numerous events that led to it. You could talk about Simone De Beauvoir’s book, you could certainly talk about Betty Friedan’s book. What happened on October 29, 1966 was that NOW was founded and we sent word that we were going to fight for laws that finally enabled women to be equal to men and we were going to fight for the enactment of the law. So that is what changed on October 29th. Finally, the officials in power could no longer say that we could ignore the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and we are going to ignore human rights and women’s rights. 

Williams: One of the most interesting stories to me in the book is on page 20 when you talk about how Pauli Murray was searing a medallion of a jail door with a lock and chain in honor of Alice Paul. This story is so interesting, I had never heard this before! Both Paul and Murray are incredibly important in our WAPUSH curriculum. Can you share more about how you learned Murray received the medallion from Betsy Graves Reyneau who was a friend active in the suffrage movement?

Fox: I don’t know about the delivery of that medallion to Pauli. I just know that when Pauli attended our founding of NOW at that historic event, she was holding the medallion around her neck and she told that story. We were all deeply moved because it linked us to the suffragists who fought for the vote and the first step for equality for women. We call ourselves the second wave because the second wave was to end discrimination. The first wave was to get the vote.

Williams: The role of men in the feminist movement receives a lot of analysis in your book which is fascinating. I was especially struck by Phineas Indritz, the lawyer who advocated for women. His work is so important yet not well known today. What do you think high school students should know about him when they study the women’s movement?

Fox: In my book I say thirty activists who history should not forget. Twenty-nine of them were women and one was a man, and that was Phineas Indred. There were other men too, Richard Graham, my husband, who were first chair of the board with New York NOW. Carl Declar, who was a professor who was on our first board of directors of NOW. There were other men too! But, Phineas Indred deserves to be in the history books. He worked for a number of people in Congress, and especially Martha Graham, who was one of our heroes. It’s hard to know actually of the fascinating comments that Martha Graham made, how many were written by Phineas Indred as a staffer for Martha Graham and how many were written by Martha herself. He definitely wrote some of her most historic comments. Phineas was on our first board of Directors, he was on the first legal committee, which was Mary Eastwood, Margie Lee Grewal, Phineas Indritz, among others. They certainly were very important and they worked, they all had jobs! They worked at night, generally meeting at Mary Eastwood’s apartment and they worked on the laws that they wanted to install, the laws that we wanted to change, and the laws we wanted to enact. They worked every night and paid for all of the expenses of doing the work. Phineas did that. Phineas especially was involved in the Munsey case in the state of Pennsylvania that had a law that stated that women convicts could have a higher sentence than men for the crime because supposedly women took longer to rehabilitate. Phineas got that law changed and he led the lawsuit against it with Marguerite Rawalt. Then Phineas Indreds worked very hard for the pregnancy discrimination act, which ended discrimination against women, no longer did someone have to resign because she was pregnant. And Phineas worked again and again through the years in his writings, in his legal work for our important cause.

Williams: Thank you. I really enjoyed learning about your role in the 1980 march for the Equal Rights Amendment in Illinois. Can you tell us more about this story? I noticed in the picture on page 110 that you are wearing suffrage white and carrying a large banner. It’s wonderful how that dress is now at the New York Historical Society (mentioned on pg. 131). Can you tell us more about this march and who else attended this march?

Fox: Well, our custom those days whenever we marched was to wear suffrage white. I chose to wear this dress that my daughter wore as her graduation dress and actually later wore as her wedding dress! It was a Mexican wedding dress. We marched in Illinois because Illinois was a state that needed to ratify the Equal Rights Amendment. I think all the other states had finally ratified it and Illinois was the last state that we needed to get 38 states. It was on Mother’s Day 1980, Eleanor Smeal was there. All the officers of NOW were there, I couldn’t give you all of their names because I don’t remember. The picture of me marching was on the front page of the Do It Now, NOW newsletter. I spoke and dedicated my role in the march to my mother, Ann Rubenstein Fox who just died that week. I think my inspiration for being active in NOW was that I did not want to live the life that my mother led. She hated being a housewife, it was the wrong job for her, and she was actually mentally ill in her later days. I believe that would not have happened if she had been able to have a job that she liked and that utilized her talents. Interestingly, Gloria Steinem’s mother was also mentally ill and so was Catherine East’s mother. I think all of these women would have led much more productive and healthier lives if we had had the women’s movement earlier.

Williams: Do you have any emerging feminist scholarship that you admire or anyone whose work you are currently enjoying reading?

Fox: I have not really been reading current feminist readings to be perfectly honest. I would still say to a high school or college student who asks me what feminist literature to read that they should read the Feminine Mystique. I think that is still the book that holds up today many years later and everything is still true and applicable.

Williams: Thank you. Do you support the creation of an AP U.S. Women’s History class? If so, can you share why you think this course would be good for high school students?

Fox: I applaud you for working to get an AP Women’s History class. I think it is long overdue and I would hope that not only young women, but also young men, boys as well as girls, would take the course to understand that it is about men and women working for equality. That is what women’s history is all about! It is about equal partnership for women and for men. That was the slogan of NOW. Equal partnership for women and truly equal partnership with men. I think the course would prepare them for many other scholarship activities in their lives. It would certainly prepare them for their college lives as well. I applaud you and hope you will succeed in getting an AP course for women’s history.

Williams: Thank you so much! The work that I have done for this project has been so personally fulfilling for me and enriching for the people who I have spoken with about it. So, no matter what I am very hopeful that this will have an impact.

Fox: I also, if I may just put in a plug for my book, which is called Women’s Revolution: How We Changed Your Life. I believe it lists all of the events that were important for bringing the revolution about and many leaders, but certainly the 30 leaders, that history should not forget. But certainly, it includes a whole chapter on Betty Friedan. I believe that in your course, you will certainly be featuring Betty Friedan’s books, but also my book called The Women’s Revolution. 

Williams: We will be certain to include that. Thank you for mentioning that. Thank you for your time!